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Essjay/TOW

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"Essjay" is a prominent editor and administrator on the English Wikipedia. He gained notoriety outside Wikipedia in February, 2007 when it was discovered he had fabricated academic achievements to the U.S. national press.<ref name = "iTWire"> </ref><ref name = "Inq"> </ref>

"Essjay" was interviewed for a New Yorker article on Wikipedia titled "Know It All" published in the July 31, 2006 issue.<ref name="newyorker"> </ref>

New Yorker Magazine recently updated the article with a correction indicating that "Essjay" had identified himself as "Ryan Jordan". The New Yorker went on to state, "he was described in the piece as “a tenured professor of religion at a private university” with "a Ph.D. in theology and a degree in canon law.", he now claims he's actually "twenty-four and holds no advanced degrees, and that he has never taught."<ref name="newyorker" />

According to Vancouver 24 Hours, Daniel Brandt had discovered the Essjay/Ryan Jordan connection, and reported this to The New Yorker<ref name="vancouver24"> </ref>

Jimmy Wales, who claims he is the sole founder of Wikipedia and is founder of Wikia, said of this administrator's invented persona, "I regard it as a pseudonym and I don’t really have a problem with it."<ref name = "iTWire"/>

Larry Sanger, who claims and is widely reported as the co-founder of Wikipedia, responded to Wales on his Citizendium blog:

There’s something utterly breathtaking, and ultimately tragic, about Jimmy telling The New Yorker that he doesn’t have a problem with Essjay’s lies, and by essentially honoring Essjay after his lies were exposed.... Doesn’t Jimmy know that this has the potential to be even more damaging to Wikipedia than the Seigenthaler situation, since it reflects directly on the judgment and values of the management of Wikipedia?<ref name="cz"> </ref>

Jimmy Wales later issued a new statement on his Wikipedia User talk page that said the following<ref> </ref>:

I have been for several days in a remote part of India with little or no Internet access. I only learned this morning that EssJay used his false credentials in content disputes. I understood this to be primarily the matter of a pseudonymous identity (something very mild and completely understandable given the personal dangers possible on the Internet) and not a matter of violation of people's trust. I want to make it perfectly clear that my past support of EssJay in this matter was fully based on a lack of knowledge about what has been going on. Even now, I have not been able to check diffs, etc.

I have asked EssJay to resign his positions of trust within the community. In terms of the full parameters of what happens next, I advise (as usual) that we take a calm, loving, and reasonable approach. From the moment this whole thing became known, EssJay has been contrite and apologetic. People who characterize him as being "proud" of it or "bragging" are badly mistaken.

Radar Magazine poked fun at The New Yorker over the issue, stating that it "..only took the magazine's vaunted fact-checking department seven months.." to discover the identity of their interviewee.<ref name="radar"> </ref>

Contents

[edit] See also

  • Criticism of Wikipedia

Category:Wikipedia people|Jordan, Ryan Category:Impostors|Jordan, Ryan

[edit] References

<references />

[edit] Further reading








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[edit] Essjay

These questions are to gauge community opinion on the situation regarding User:Essjay. There is prior discussion at User talk:Jimbo Wales#The New Yorker quotes you, User talk:Essjay#New Yorker article, and Wikipedia:Community noticeboard#Essjay-The New Yorker community discussion, among other places.

[edit] Essjay should step down from Arbcom

[edit] Yes
  1. Essjay needs to step down. --Aude (talk) 14:03, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
  2. Regarding my position on all Essjay's current positions: the carrying-out of the duties associated with all of these require personal integrity. Essjay's actions have called his personal integrity into question. He should therefore step down from all positions, and be reinstated only if the community still trusts him enough to re-elect him despite recent events. A strong signal also needs to be sent that Wikipedia will not brush off fraudulent claims as "just a pseudonym". MartinMcCann 14:24, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
  3. He misrepresented himself, therefore he is not trustworthy enough for this position - Skysmith 14:26, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
  4. The lack of judgment that Essjay showed when he fabricated his credentials and used them to gain leverage in debates is antithetical to what the community expects of one entrusted with so much power. He must be held accountable. A Train take the 14:27, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
      how did he use them to gain advantage? Betacommand (talk • contribs • Bot) 19:22, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
  5. In addition to the revelations here, it concerns me that the December election produced a number of viable candidates who could and should have been selected ahead of someone who did not run for ArbCom. ArbCom needs members who are in a position of trust, and I feel that is lacking here. Sjakkalle (Check!) 14:30, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
  6. He (may have) benefited from his misrepresented academic credentials. Gwen Gale 14:35, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
      how did he use them to gain advantage? Betacommand (talk • contribs • Bot) 19:22, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
  7. He may not have benefited from his credentials in being appointed to arbitrator, but the trust is widely questioned. SYSS Mouse 14:47, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
  8. I cannot trust or respect the ArbCom's judgements as long as an admitted fabricator and liar is allowed to serve. FCYTravis 15:04, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
  9. Absolutely. I do not trust him to judge other users. The sockpuppet concerns over Robbie are also very troubling. --Cyde Weys 15:09, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
  10. I just don't trust Essjay anymore. Sorry. PTO 15:13, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
  11. Yes. Editors who get sitebanned by ArbCom routinely accuse Wikipedia and the Committee of malfeasance. If he remains an arbitrator then his presence would legitimize those complaints and undermine the Committee's credibility. DurovaCharge! 15:25, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
  12. This incident is only a small part of why I think this; I didn't like the idea of direct appointments to Arbcom, and I'm not convinced he would have passed had he decided to run in the election. That's not quite enough to ask him to step down, but combined with this, it is. -Amarkov moo! 15:32, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
  13. AnonEMouse (squeak) 15:37, 2 March 2007 (UTC), unfortunately
  14. Partly because he didn't even run in the election, I think this is the worst time he could have been appointed. Majorly (o rly?) 15:51, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
  15. While I personally continue to trust Essjay's judgment, it's clear that he has lost that of the community as a whole. —Cryptic 15:53, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
  16. Sorry Essjay but I agree with all of the above, there is just too much going on. And Majorly brought up a good point; and I find the "Robbie" thing worrisome. ~ Arjun 15:54, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
  17. Yes. Essjay has betrayed the trust of the community, inside and out. RFerreira 15:56, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
  18. If no action is taken, it will be a blow to the credibility of the Wikipedia project as a whole. He has advanced himself as a representative of the project on a number of occasions, actively using his false credentials to bolster his own credibility. It also appears that he has invoked his false credentials to defend substantive edits to the Wikipedia itself. If the public is to be expected to treat the Wikipedia itself as credible or reliable, this kind of behaviour cannot be condoned. He should step down to the level of a regular user, and work his way back up if the community allows him to. - Borfo 16:04, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
    User only has 4 edits before today.SYSS Mouse 17:20, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
    I don't see how that detracts from my point. Take it as the viewpoint of an outsider if you want, but that doesn't make my opinion any less valid. Wikipedia isn't built just for people with five or more edits. This is a public issue. Weight my opinion however you like. - Borfo 17:36, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
  19. Yes: Lying to us is one thing, lying publicly about false qualifications to bolster wikipedia credence is another. Every wikipedia editor and their work is now suspect. Giano 16:17, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
  20. Essjay should step down from ArbCom. He has demonstrated that he is ethically challenged by lying to the press and repeatedly averring to fake credentials as evidence of his expertise on theological matters. // Internet Esquire 16:25, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
    But it's not a court... and at least one other member has some ethical issue (which may or may not be true) that apparently does not affect his ability to arbitrate, why is it different for Essjay? Milto LOL pia 16:28, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
    Cuz (to my knowledge) that other arbcomm member never claimed fake credentials (never mind to a reporter), but only picked his words very carefully in briefly describing his background. Gwen Gale 16:42, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
    I can only assume that you are talking about Fred Bauder, who has a penchant for describing himself as a retired lawyer without noting that he was suspended from the practice of law before retiring and never reinstated. While I'm no fan of Fred Bauder, I have reviewed the court's opinion in the case that led to his being suspended from the practice of law in Colorado, and (while newsworthy) it has not affected my opinion of him one way or the other. // Internet Esquire 17:37, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
  21. Agree with the above. Trebor 16:33, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
  22. ArbComm has to deal with evidence that is private from time to time. We just had an entire case that was private, with only the outcome visible. As we can't believe in Essjay's honesty, we can't trust him to handle evidence that is not visible. That he didn't go through the usual election process is an aggravating factor here, but not the reason that he should resign. GRBerry 16:36, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
  23. Yes: Per pretty much all above. All credibility and respect in this person is lost. --Oakshade 16:42, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
  24. Yes... all his actions would be second guessed from here on out. - Denny 17:10, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
  25. Yes. I take no issue with his use of a pseudonym, but it is extremely troubling that he has used it many times to gain the upper hand in context disputes, behavior which (I hope) the arbcom would ban someone for. Savidan 17:12, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
  26. Agree with above. If he wishes to serve on the ArbCom in the future, he should run for election. ChazBeckett 17:15, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
  27. Yes. His judgement has been shown to be suspect. The community has lost trust in him. He should step down now to prevent further harm to Wikipedia. —Doug Bell talk 17:27, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
  28. Yes. Rcade 17:46, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
  29. Yes. While I still do not question his ability to make appropriate judgments, his stunning lack of judgment in launching on and expanding his program of deception very much calls into question his moral character and his fitness to hold any position of responsibility, and definitely taints the credibility of both himself and (for as long as he remains on it) the entire ArbCom. Kelly Martin (talk) 17:51, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
  30. Yes. Unacceptable. ~ UBeR 17:58, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
  31. Strong support. Falsely padding one's resume and using it as leverage is inappropriate for the position he holds that he was appointed to. --badlydrawnjeff talk 18:14, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
  32. Someone whose judgment has been shown to be suspect, who is known to have no problem with telling blatant, unnecessary lies (by unnecessary, I am referring to the two doctorates), who was prepared to jeopardise Wikipedia's reputation by continuing his lies while representing the Foundation to the public media, and who has lost the trust of a large proportion of the community should not be on ArbCom. ElinorD (talk) 18:40, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
  33. [1] ~ trialsanderrors 19:18, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
  34. Arbcom's formal power derives from Jimbo, but much of its efficacy and informal influence derives from the fact that it is a body composed of respected and trusted users. I do not trust liars. --RobthTalk 19:23, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
  35. Sadly, I have to support this. It may not be very fair, but the fact is that Essjay has become a lightning rod for criticism of Wikipedia; his continued involvement as an arbitrator will simply make the ArbCom the subject of unfair "guilt by association" attacks and will undermine its own credibility. For everyone's sake, I think Essjay needs to keep a low profile for the next few months and being on the ArbCom definitely won't help that happen. -- ChrisO 19:46, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
  36. Yes, due to poor judgment. J. Spencer 19:53, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
  37. I also support stepping down from ArbCom. While I hope Essjay continues his work with WP, it will be difficult for him to be trusted with ArbCom work after this.--Alabamaboy 20:05, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
  38. Qualified: I think at least offering to step down would be the right thing to do. I am not, however, certain that there would be any actual benefit in forcibly removing him from the position, even assuming such a thing could happen. Shimeru 20:21, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
  39. ARBCOM should be our best representatives and Essjay has proven himself to fall short of that mark now. He played on the assumptions of more than just Wikipedia when he used his user page credentials as reason for other academics to give his opinion higher standing. That is just one example of how he has abused more than just the community's trust and should not be sitting in judgement of others' actions when he can not be trusted to make best judgement of his own. ju66l3r 20:49, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
[edit] No
  1. No. He was appointed on his merits as a contributor to Wikipedia. Sam Blacketer 14:20, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
  2. I think he'll do a good job, and if he owes the community an apology he can give it best by serving time on the arbcom. Tom Harrison Talk 14:59, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
  3. Frankly, I'm not sure he's got the stomach for it, but that's Jimbo's decisions, which he made after the Grand Revelation. Milto LOL pia 15:44, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
  4. No. My considerations are explained in depth here, because I thought they're too long for this noticeboard. Happy Editing by Snowolf(talk)CONCOI on 16:45, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
  5. No Essjay works with Jimbo, so I'm sure he was appointed with Jimbo as informed as possible. In all honesty, this has been blown out of all proportion. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Anthony cfc (talk • contribs) 17:16, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
  6. No. I think it would be quite different if he lied under oath, or on something such as a journal publication or a resume. As it stands, it's an unsworn interview with no legal, monetary, or other consequences of such nature. --Nlu (talk) 17:28, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
  7. No. The appointment was made with full knowledge of Essjay's identity, so no change has occurred to strip him of the right to arbcom status. --tjstrf talk 17:33, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
  8. I don't think so. We can't worry overly about people's off-Wiki activities. Whether he is and will be a good abitor is really what matters. Tempest in a teapot. Herostratus 17:44, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
  9. No - And this poll is silly. pschemp | talk 18:32, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
  10. No. Revelations about his identity don't change his ability to decide on the merits of a case. alphachimp 18:42, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Voting Is Evil
  1. It's far, far to early to be yes/noing this discussion. This is not a poll about what the community things about things in principal, where getting it out on the table helps, but what the community thinks about facts on the ground, where discussion, not lining up, is a good thing. It's obvious there's no strong consensus one way or another, so all we do now is form into camps. Hipocrite - «Talk» 20:18, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Discussion

Can we get an exact timeline here? He was appointed what, a week ago? This was a delayed scandal, really, I am pretty sure we knew he was "Ryan Jordan" before he was appointed to ArbCom. It just took a while before someone wrote the Wikipedia article and I guess everyone found out and this became a trainwreck. So I am currently thinking Essjay was appointed to ArbCom with Jimbo knowing about the identity thing. --W.marsh 14:30, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

The situation was known on February 1, well before the ArbCom appointment, see here. In fact, it was slashdotted on Feb 7 as well. It just didn't gain traction because Brandt has not yet mananged to browbeat the New Yorker into issuing a correction. It has been discussen on Essjay's talk page many times between then and now. Dmcdevit resigned on the 14th. Thatcher131 14:32, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
Can you lead me to the slashdot article? I missed that article. SYSS Mouse 14:36, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
Hmmm. Let me look for it. Thatcher131 14:37, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
It appears as a comment in this thread started on Feb 7. Commenter appears to be Daniel Brandt from all appearances. Thatcher131 14:40, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Essjay should give up checkuser/oversight roles

[edit] Yes
  1. This is a position of trust, I need time to regain trust in Essjay. --Aude (talk) 14:03, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
  2. People need to be able to take you at your word on checkuser. I don't think we can reasonably ask the community to do that at this point. No opinion on oversight. Tom Harrison Talk 14:17, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
  3. MartinMcCann 14:24, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
  4. He misrepresented himself, therefore he is not trustworthy enough for this position - Skysmith 14:27, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
  5. Position of very high trust, and a position where there is little transparency. The trust now is missing. Sjakkalle (Check!) 14:30, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
  6. My comments can be found in the top section. A Train take the 14:33, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
  7. Yes, these positions deal with sensitive information and require the users to be trusted. – Chacor 14:36, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
  8. One of the most sensitive roles at WP, not for someone whose trustworthiness and judgement have come into question. Gwen Gale 14:37, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
  9. Again, this is a community which relies on trust - and I no longer have trust in Essjay. FCYTravis 15:06, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
  10. Absolutely a position of trust, and I don't see that Essjay has this trust any longer. --Cyde Weys 15:10, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
  11. Yes. Especially Checkuser. Essjay violated the trust of the community by lying about his credentials. This blows my mind. PTO 15:14, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
  12. Yes. Obviously someone who misrepresented his credentials (on theology no less, with its implication of moral undersstanding) should not be entrusted with powers whose details he may not reveal. Checkuser and oversight are processes based on trust. DurovaCharge! 15:27, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
  13. AnonEMouse (squeak) 15:38, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
  14. Majorly (o rly?) 15:53, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
  15. You must regain trust again...that's all there is too it. Sorry. ~ Arjun 15:56, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
  16. Per my reasoning above. RFerreira 15:58, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
  17. for the same reasons as above - Borfo 16:05, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
  18. I don't trust him any longer. Giano 16:18, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
  19. We can't trust his honesty. For these positions, even higher levels of trust are necessary. Given blatant, sustained dishonesty on his part, he both 1) does not have my trust and 2) is not worthy of the communities trust. GRBerry 16:25, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
  20. Essjay should surrender his checkuser privileges. He has demonstrated that he is ethically challenged by lying to the press and repeatedly averring to fake credentials as evidence of his expertise on theological matters. Netesq 16:28, 2 March 2007 (UTC)</small>
  21. Trebor 16:35, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
  22. O' irony, if somebody did a thorough "check user" on him... --Oakshade 16:44, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
  23. Yes. These positions requires complete trust. ChazBeckett 17:17, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
  24. Immediately. These are the most concerning and highest trust privileges with little transparency or oversight on their use. —Doug Bell talk 17:28, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
    Pun intended? :P – Chacor 17:29, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
    Not really, although the language was not accidental. —Doug Bell talk 18:22, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
  25. Yes. Rcade 17:46, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
  26. Yes. His access to checkuser and especially oversight makes it that much easier to execute further frauds of this nature; I have no reason to believe that Essjay was Ryan's first account, or that it will be his last. The requirement that I would impose of disclosing his identity to the Foundation is a moot point, since his identity has finally been disclosed. Kelly Martin (talk) 17:57, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
  27. Yes. His actions have shown he is not trustworthy. ~ UBeR 17:59, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
  28. Same as above. --badlydrawnjeff talk 18:14, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
  29. Absolutely. I cannot think of a position on Wikipedia that requires greater trust than that of checkuser. Like Tom Harrison, I'm less sure about oversight. ElinorD (talk) 18:46, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
  30. Yes, without question. J. Spencer 19:55, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
  31. Agree. Ties in with trust issues. As said, though, I hope he remains a vital part of WP.--Alabamaboy 20:06, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
  32. Yes to checkuser, at least. Checkuser is restricted because of privacy concerns. Essjay, apparently to ensure his privacy, manufactured credentials and lied (at least by omission, perhaps by commission) to the press. Much as I appreciate irony, there's something that strikes me as fundamentally wrong about giving this individual a tool that might be used to invade the privacy of others. And it's a shame, because he's done a great deal of good work in this area -- but I think this is where the trust issues most come into play. Shimeru 20:28, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
[edit] No
  1. No because checkuser has its own procedure for verifying that it is not misused. Sam Blacketer 14:22, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
  2. No This is largely a technical role. SYSS Mouse 14:47, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
  3. No, this is a Jimbo/foundation controlled thing for privacy/legal issues, it's their choice. Milto LOL pia 15:44, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
  4. No. My considerations are explained in depth here, because I thought they're too long for this noticeboard. Happy Editing by Snowolf(talk)CONCOI on 16:45, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
  5. No. There is no evidence here of misuse of CheckUser information. --Nlu (talk) 17:28, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
  6. No, his actions were unrelated to his qualifications for checkuser or oversight. --tjstrf talk 17:35, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
  7. No, why should he? He hasn't abused them. Herostratus 17:44, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
    I'm curious: how do you know that? —Doug Bell talk 18:23, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
  8. No - And this poll is silly. pschemp | talk 18:33, 2 March 2007 (UTC) No evidence he's abused checkuser. Checkuser logs are available to all checkusers, and another other checkuser would have spotted abuse. pschemp | talk 18:33, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
    Really? I kind of figured at the checkuser level that trust would be assumed at that it was likely that nobody goes through the logs looking for abuse. Now maybe there are questions about abuse, or at least an uncomfortable level of uncertainty, and that simple fact alone is enough reason for Essjay to step down. —Doug Bell talk 19:01, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Voting Is Evil
  1. It's far, far to early to be yes/noing this discussion. This is not a poll about what the community things about things in principal, where getting it out on the table helps, but what the community thinks about facts on the ground, where discussion, not lining up, is a good thing. It's obvious there's no strong consensus one way or another, so all we do now is form into camps. Hipocrite - «Talk» 20:18, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Abstain/Neutral/Other
  • I agree with Kelly Martin that editors with checkuser and oversight should fully disclose their identities to the Foundation. However, that can't be applied retroactively. Thatcher131 14:30, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
  • Yes to checkuser, because you must have lots of trust to do that. No to oversight, though, because misuse of it is easily trackable by a steward and grounds for immediate removal. -Amarkov moo! 15:34, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
Use of checkuser is also logged and monitored, plus the Foundation has a checkuser Ombudsperson to review and act on any complaints of abuse. Thatcher131 15:46, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
  • This is the foundation's gig, really; these features exist for their benefit, and there are mechanisms in place to allow the users who use them to monitor each other. No community trust is necessary to wield these powers effectively. That said, if I were the foundation, I would want him to step down if only to defuse the media brouhaha. --RobthTalk 19:27, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
  • Agree with Robth. For everyone's sake, not least his own, I think Essjay needs to keep a low profile for the next few months. -- ChrisO 19:48, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Essjay should step down as Bureaucrat

[edit] Yes
  1. MartinMcCann 14:24, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
  2. He misrepresented himself, therefore he is not trustworthy enough for this position - Skysmith 14:28, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
  3. The RFB passed marginally, a bit lower than the normal 90% standard. Concerns over the Robbie account which supported and which may be a sockpuppet have undermined the trust of the candidate sadly, as well as the integrity of the RFB. Sjakkalle (Check!) 14:32, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
  4. My comments can be found in the top section. A Train take the 14:33, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
  5. This role involves granting access to software functionality. It's not for someone whose judgement has come into question. Gwen Gale 14:39, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
  6. Per the embarrassment he caused the project in the media. DurovaCharge! 15:48, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
  7. AnonEMouse (squeak) 15:38, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
  8. Possible sockpuppet (sorry, at this point, guilty until proven innocent) plus fabrication of qualifications... this goes too. FCYTravis 15:42, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
  9. The Robbie voting for him on his RFB is really concerning to me. Who is Robbie? Is Robbie just a sockpuppet of Essjay? If bureaucrat status were achieved through underhanded means, it should be taken away. --Cyde Weys 15:51, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
  10. The robbie thing worries me greatly...I mean the fact that it was used in a RFB which I can't overlook at this time. ~ Arjun 15:57, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
  11. Again, yes. Without the need for speculation, multiple fabrication issues are at stake. RFerreira 16:00, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
  12. for the same reasons as above - Borfo 16:07, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
    User only has 4 edits before today. SYSS Mouse 17:19, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
  13. He should just go, quietly. Giano 16:19, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
  14. Essjay should step down as a bureaucrat. There is no shortage of bureaucrats, and Essjay has demonstrated that he is ethically challenged by lying to the press and repeatedly averring to fake credentials as evidence of his expertise on theological matters. // Internet Esquire 16:30, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
  15. There's too much embarrassment for Wikipedia and distrust in this person for him to have this position. --Oakshade 16:56, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
  16. Tis is another position that requires a great deal of trust. Based on this incident, I don't think we can trust Essjay to use proper judgment. The "Robbie" thing also bugs me and I'd like to hear a straighforward explanation of this from Essjay. ChazBeckett 17:20, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
  17. I'm less concerned about abuse of this position, but at this point Essjay need to show some character and do the honorable thing by stepping down. —Doug Bell talk 17:30, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
  18. Yes. Rcade 17:47, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
  19. He should be required to relinquish the position if for no other reason than vote fraud: his purported boyfriend (User:Robbie31), who is almost certainly either a sockpuppet or a meatpuppet, voted on his RfB. Such shenanigans by any other user would have earned a quick termination of the RFA/RFB and at least a short block if not a much longer one. For Ryan to get off with less in these circumstances would be outrageous. Kelly Martin (talk) 17:58, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
  20. Yes. The less corrupt, the better. ~ UBeR 18:00, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
  21. Yes, because he has shown poor judgment and lack of integrity, and has brought embarrassment to the Foundation. Less important than checkuser and ArbCom, though. The Robbie vote doesn't particularly bother me. If there's "no such person", and Robbie is just an Essjay sockpuppet, then it's just part of the whole tissue of lies. It's not at all clear that the Robbie vote was a particular problem. If he had been using it for votestacking, he wouldn't have acknowledged a link between the accounts. ElinorD (talk) 18:59, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
  22. Again, as we're reminded every time we see a flareup on WT:RFA over a controversial promotion, this is a position that requires community support and trust to allow its smooth operation. Throw in that even the formal claim to the power is called into question by the sockpuppeting issue, and I can't see it being appropriate to keep this. --RobthTalk 19:30, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
  23. Yes. With the judgment and integrity issues, what else is there to say? J. Spencer 20:03, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
[edit] No
  1. Largely a technical position invloved with granting access rights. I don't see a problem. Tom Harrison Talk 14:22, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
  2. No. His actions as bureaucrat have not been questioned, and there is no reason to suspect that the vote on promoting him would have turned out differently based on beliefs about his 'real world' identity. Sam Blacketer 14:25, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
  3. --MONGO 14:28, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
  4. No, he has done good work as a crat. – Chacor 14:37, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
  5. don't see a problemSYSS Mouse 14:47, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
  6. Bureaucratship doesn't have anything to do with trust. I don't see why this is needed. PTO 15:18, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
  7. I guarantee there are worse liars with the bit. All of his promotions did not suddenly become flopsMilto LOL pia 15:44, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
  8. He's the best bureaucrat of the lot, worth two or three of the others imo. Majorly (o rly?) 15:55, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
  9. No. My considerations are explained in depth here, because I thought they're too long for this noticeboard. Happy Editing by Snowolf(talk)CONCOI on 16:45, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
  10. No. As per my position above with regard to ArbCom. --Nlu (talk) 17:29, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
  11. No, his actions were unrelated to his qualifications as a bureacrat so stepping down will not fix any part of the problem. It will, however, deprive us of an active bureaucrat. --tjstrf talk 17:37, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
  12. No. As a bureaucrat he's done fine work as far as I know of. We can't blow off good bureaucrats for every little meatspace pecadillo they might have. Herostratus 17:48, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
  13. No - And this poll is silly. pschemp | talk 18:34, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
  14. Definitelty not Essjay is probably the most active Bureaucrat of the lot, if you look at the User rights log and then User rename log, Essjay is nearly always appearing there, infact I've never seen him not there in the 50 search results which automatically display.Tellyaddict 18:43, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
  15. No. One of our best bureaucrats, loosing him in this position would truly affect the community negatively. Michaelas10 (Talk) 18:58, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
  16. No. He has done well in this role, and the recent shenanigans don't impact on his work in this area. -- ChrisO 19:49, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
  17. No --Alabamaboy 20:08, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
  18. If he chose to put forth an offer to be re-evaluated, it might be best from a theoretical-ethics standpoint, but practically, I don't see any benefit in his resigning the position. I think this might be going overboard. Shimeru 20:34, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Voting Is Evil
  1. It's far, far to early to be yes/noing this discussion. This is not a poll about what the community things about things in principal, where getting it out on the table helps, but what the community thinks about facts on the ground, where discussion, not lining up, is a good thing. It's obvious there's no strong consensus one way or another, so all we do now is form into camps. Hipocrite - «Talk» 20:18, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Undecided/Abstain
  1. His role as a bureaucrat is really unaffected by this, but I'm also uncomfortable with him holding any positions of power at this time. --badlydrawnjeff talk 18:15, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
  2. Explicitly abstaining. GRBerry 20:38, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Essjay should resign as Administrator

[edit] Yes
  1. MartinMcCann 14:24, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
  2. Yes, especially when he is now in position to remove evidence of his imposture and possibly create more fabrications - Skysmith 14:29, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
  3. I forgot about the rollback button. Gwen Gale 14:52, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
    Non-admins can have rollback too. There are automated tools around. This makes no difference. – Chacor 14:54, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
  4. In situations where a prominent member of a well known organization causes the organization embarrassment in the mainstream media, this sort of resignation is routine. If he were to continue administrating, it ought to be via a new election in which a fully informed community decides. The longer he delays his resignations, the more it damages Wikipedia in the eyes of the public at large and the more I doubt I would support him in a new vote. DurovaCharge! 15:35, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
  5. Everything he has gained through misrepresentation and fraud, must be removed. FCYTravis 15:43, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
  6. for the same reasons as above - Borfo 16:07, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
  7. He has let us all down, and brought the project into disrepute, if he wanted to hide his identitiy, he should have just said nothing, and kept a low profile. Giano 16:21, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
  8. Essjay should step down as an administrator. He has demonstrated that he is ethically challenged by lying to the press and repeatedly averring to fake credentials as evidence of his expertise on theological matters. If he is truly contrite, he should demonstrate this by becoming just another Wikipedian. // Internet Esquire 16:34, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
  9. That he's been an excellent contributor is all more the reason of the distrust the public and editors have of him; He knew exactly what he was doing and still fails to properly apologize. As mentioned on his talk page, if a job applicant lied about an academic degree (or two or three), the company's human resources would run a check and the person would be exposed as a liar and not get the job. That this person has this administrator position for a long time and used those false academic credentials to gain respect and stature to the public and colleagues makes it all worse.
    Again to paraphrase what I said on his talk page: Sometimes public figures are "outed" for false claims on their resumés or personal biographies and that causes deep embarrassment for their superiors and colleagues alike; take a glance at the former FEMA chief Michael D. Brown article and scroll to "Accusations of false claims in Brown's credentials" and you'll see what I mean. --Oakshade 16:53, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
    I think you gave a wrong example. Brown was widely criticized by his gross incompetence during Hurricane Katrina and that the false credentials only broke out when there was already a wide call for resignation already (and he was relieved his on-site duty by that time). SYSS Mouse 17:26, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
    I agree. But the Brown resumé issue added to the embarassment at a sensitive time for the administration, kind of like the current atmosphere of academics attacking WP for its credibility or lack thereof. --Oakshade 17:32, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
  10. Yes. Rcade 17:47, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
  11. While I feel less strongly about this than I do about the other roles above, I believe he should relinquish his adminship for the betterment of Wikipedia. For Ryan to continue to hold any role of responsibility in Wikipedia, after what he has done, is a public embarrassment for Wikipedia. Kelly Martin (talk) 17:59, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
  12. Yes, because he achieved adminship not as Ryan Jordan, but as the tenured PhD. It was completely fraudlent. --badlydrawnjeff talk 18:16, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
  13. [2] ~ trialsanderrors 19:22, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
  14. Yes. The damage has been done, and I just don't think he can be as effective as before. J. Spencer 20:08, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
[edit] No
  1. Essjay has been a valuable contributor, and I think this would be excessive. --Aude (talk) 14:03, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
  2. Tom Harrison Talk 14:20, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
  3. No reason to call into question any administrative action he has taken. Sam Blacketer 14:22, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
  4. --MONGO 14:26, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
  5. No evidence of misuse of admin tools, and he gained adminship by doing a lot of good anti-vandal work. Nothing he has done has eroded my trust in his ability to handle the basic delete/protect/block tools in a responsible manner. Sjakkalle (Check!) 14:33, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
  6. A Train take the 14:34, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
  7. No, he has done good work as an admin. – Chacor 14:38, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
    Under a new username I'd have no worries about him remaining an admin. Gwen Gale 14:40, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
  8. No, for the same reason I don't support his resignation of Bureaucrat status above. PTO 15:19, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
  9. No, same as for b'crat - his judgement in sysop matters has not changed. Milto LOL pia 15:44, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
  10. No, he's a great admin. Majorly (o rly?) 15:56, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
  11. Very good administrator, the project won't benefit taking those tools away. ~ Arjun 16:00, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
  12. No. My considerations are explained in depth here, because I thought they're too long for this noticeboard. Happy Editing by Snowolf(talk)CONCOI on 16:48, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
  13. I've supported his resignation/removal from the ther positions, but I don't see a problem with him remaining an admin. There's plenty of oversight here. ChazBeckett 17:22, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
  14. No. As per my position above as to ArbCom. --Nlu (talk) 17:29, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
  15. No, his actions did not involve any abuse of administrator status, so it need not be taken away from him. --tjstrf talk 17:39, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
  16. No, this would be way an overreaction. One's activities as an admin should be the standard by which one's adminship is judged, as a rule. If Essjay had done something really bad in meatspace, that might be different, but this all overblown. Herostratus 17:46, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
  17. No - And this poll is silly. pschemp | talk 20:51, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
  18. No - Absolutely not, he's been a good administrator. But for everyone's sake, not least his own, I think Essjay needs to keep a low profile for the next few months. I'd suggest spending some time on technical issues (anti-vandal patrol etc) rather than editing. -- ChrisO 19:50, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
  19. No --Alabamaboy 20:09, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
  20. Again, I think this is overboard, per my bureaucrat comments above. Shimeru 20:38, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Voting Is Evil
  1. It's far, far to early to be yes/noing this discussion. This is not a poll about what the community things about things in principal, where getting it out on the table helps, but what the community thinks about facts on the ground, where discussion, not lining up, is a good thing. It's obvious there's no strong consensus one way or another, so all we do now is form into camps. Hipocrite - «Talk» 20:18, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Abstain/Neutral/Other
  1. Abstain. Essjay has done a lot of good work as an admin, and I rate him very highly. I do not wish to see him desysopped. But every admin relies upon credibility and authority among non-admins. I'm not sure he still has that credibility, just like I have no idea if he's lost it. The best way to gauge this might be to file a new request for adminship. AecisBrievenbus 15:38, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
  2. Per Aecis. Possibly losing arbcom, checkuser, and bureaucrat will be enough, possibly not. AnonEMouse (squeak) 15:40, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
  3. At the very least Essjay should anticipate that his administrative actions will be reviewed more closely than the typical admins will be. An RfA today would fail, there is no doubt in my mind. GRBerry 16:39, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
  4. Depends on what he does about the other positions. The longer he stays silent on this issue and the longer until he steps down from the positions of higher trust, the less likely I am to support him remaining as an admin. —Doug Bell talk 17:32, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
  5. Abstain. ~ UBeR 18:01, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
  6. Agree with Doug Bell. ElinorD (talk) 19:01, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Essjay owes should provide a real apology

[edit] Yes
  1. A real apology would go along way in allowing me to regain trust in you. --Aude (talk) 14:03, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
  2. MartinMcCann 14:24, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
  3. Skysmith 14:30, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
  4. DefinitelySYSS Mouse 14:47, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
    # He owes an apology to the New Yorker, the guy he wrote as a professor, and the half-dozen others he waved phony credentials at. We're secondary. Re Sjakkale: apologies can't be demanded, but they can certainly be owed. --AnonEMouse (squeak) 15:42, 2 March 2007 (UTC) Striking support as question changed to demanding apology. --16:34, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
  5. Essjay should apologize for violating the trust of everyone who took him at his word when he repeatedly averred to professional credentials that he did not have. His excuse of "using disinformation" to thwart online stalkers does not hold water. // Internet Esquire 16:43, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
  6. If he's to gain any<i> credibility back, he should say he was wrong with no qualifier. It was a mistake. It was wrong. Period. --Oakshade 16:59, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
  7. Yes. He owes a greater apology here for misleading the interviewer and for reflecting badly on the Wikipedia community and the editors here. --Nlu (talk) 17:30, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
[edit] No
  1. Nobody owes apologies, they are given, not demanded. Still… would be a smart move though. --Van helsing 14:23, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
  2. Agree with Van helsing. Sincere apologies are good, but cannot be demanded or owed to someone. Sjakkalle (Check!) 14:34, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
    (Comment on owes->should) Whether he should give an apology is up to Essjay. If he wants to make a sincere and contrite apology about this, that's good. If not, an apology is not worth the wear on the keyboard, and should not be given. Sjakkalle (Check!) 15:47, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
  3. He has apologized, many thought it was insincere because he explained his motives. I say it was sincere as I believe those were his sincere motives, and a true apology requires an explanation. HighInBC (Need help? Ask me) 15:30, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
  4. There are people he may need to apologize to. The community as a whole is not one of them. Nothing he has done hurt most of us, so why would he need to apologize? -Amarkov moo! 15:37, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
  5. He is either sorry or he isn't. An apology is he isn't is worthless. It's his call. I'm not going to apologize for my lies here because I'm not sorry for them, so any apology I made would be fake, for example. Milto LOL pia 15:50, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
  6. I don't see the purpose a further statement would serve other that further gratuitous humiliation. In response to Durova below, any resignations made primarily as an apology would be for entirely the wrong reasons; if Essjay resigns any positions, it should be solely because his loss of the community's trust makes him unqualified for them. —Cryptic 16:10, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
  7. Apologies are up to his conscience alone, anyhow it seems a little late in the day now for apologies - he should just resign all positions of power and keep a very low profile.Giano 16:23, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
  8. The already provided apologies are his, and are what he belive, I think. I don't agree with what he written, I don't justify him, but apologies other that that would be manufactured. <i>Happy Editing by Snowolf(talk)CONCOI on 16:45, 2 March 2007 (UTC)☺
  9. "It is a good rule in life never to apologize. The right sort of people do not want apologies, and the wrong sort take a mean advantage of them." -- P. G. Wodehouse, The Man Upstairs (1914). Ryan should only apologize if he feels that he needs to. A forced apology is worse than worthless. Furthermore, I, frankly, do not believe his claims that he created the false identity for protection, and at this juncture I am not inclined to "assume good faith". Kelly Martin (talk) 18:02, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
  10. No - And this poll is silly. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Pschemp (talk • contribs) 18:35, 2 March 2007.
  11. No. No point in a forced apology. Of course, a sincere one would be nice, but that is for Essjay to decide. ElinorD (talk) 19:08, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
  12. No - he's already stated his reasons, and it's time to draw a line under this. -- ChrisO 19:52, 2 March 2007 (UTC)


[edit] Essjay's statement is inadequate
  1. --Aude (talk) 15:58, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
  2. A Train take the 16:07, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
  3. Upon careful reflection, I'll use this opportunity to disclose something about my own background that relates to Essjay's attempted apology: he implies that his lies were somehow due to personal security needs. Eight years ago both I and my disabled and dying father were protected by a criminal restraining order. At that time I had legitimate safety concerns I wouldn't wish on anybody, yet I never found it necessary to exaggerate my credentials online as a result. I simply didn't reveal certain things. Essjay's response to this situation has not only been inadequate, it cheapens the real dangers that some people actually face. DurovaCharge! 16:08, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
    I agree. Hiding personal information for privacy and security reasons is okay, making up information about yourself is not, especially if and when it is used in a discussion. As AnonEMouse said on User talk:Jimbo Wales: "Anonymity is one thing, exaggeration is another." Basically there's a very real possibility that it was not Essjay who participated in discussions, but a fictitious persona created by Essjay. AecisBrievenbus 16:19, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
  4. I don't think he owes an apology, but he must realize that the best move at this point is to be completely honest, sincere and forthcoming.ChazBeckett 17:26, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
  5. Absolutely inadequate. Whether he chooses to provide a real apology is up to him, and the community will judge him on his actions. —Doug Bell talk 17:34, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
  6. Changed vote following the change of proposition - ordering someone to give an apology is not the way forward. Nonetheless, the excuses Essjay have given do not consitute an apology - as others have pointed out anonimity does not require one to claim qualifications which have not been awarded. MartinMcCann 17:58, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
  7. Completely inadequate. No amount of self-protection (and it was long before he became an admin and a target for stalkers) required that he pretend to have two doctorates, use his alleged expertise to gain the upper hand in content disputes, write to a professor about his credentials (after he was made an admin), and accept to give an interview to the media with those fictitious credentials. ElinorD (talk) 19:13, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Voting Is Evil
  1. It's far, far to early to be yes/noing this discussion. This is not a poll about what the community things about things in principal, where getting it out on the table helps, but what the community thinks about facts on the ground, where discussion, not lining up, is a good thing. It's obvious there's no strong consensus one way or another, so all we do now is form into camps. Hipocrite - «Talk» 20:18, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Discussion
  1. An adequate apology requires action in the form of resignations and adequate explanation. Essjay's statement provided neither. Yet I disagree with the suggestion that he owes us something or that his apology was not real. DurovaCharge! 15:38, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
  1. This might have been a poor choice of words. I have tweaked the wording. --Aude (talk) 15:43, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
I still can't agree with the current rewording. If changed to Essjay's statement is inadequate then count me in support. DurovaCharge! 15:50, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
Okay, new option is added. --Aude (talk) 15:58, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
  1. In disagreement with Kelly Martin, a sincere confession or apology can be very helpful in repairing damaged relationships. It is Essjay's own choice whether or not to make one. I'm not convinced that he understood the magnitude of the damage he has caused. The total amount of damage is still growing as more Wikipedians and outsiders learn of the situation. GRBerry 20:43, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] No further action against Essjay is needed

Without commenting on if his actions were okay or not, no further action is required.

[edit] Yes
  1. I see no benefit to the project by taking action against him. HighInBC (Need help? Ask me) 15:19, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
    Wikipedia currently does not appear to have any policies that make it an offence to misrepresent oneself; technically, therefore, User:Essjay has done nothing wrong. While I am truly saddened by User:Essjay's actions, and may never trust his word again, I think the important next step for the community is to enact clear accountability policies instead of lynching User:Essjay. How can we prevent the next such breach of trust? — Kaustuv Chaudhuri 15:07, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
  2. Why? He has added to Wikipedia's smooth operation forever, and continued to do so in the month that he was exposed, nor eason to do anything now if there wasn't in early January. Milto LOL pia 15:51, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
  3. My considerations are explained in depth here, because I thought they're too long for this noticeboard. Happy Editing by Snowolf(talk)CONCOI on 16:45, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
  4. I take no pleasure in the ruin of a man, and I don't think any formal action against Essjay is warranted. However, if Essjay is truly contrite, he will voluntarily surrender all of his special privileges and resign from his positions of trust on Wikipedia. // Internet Esquire 16:51, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
  5. Jimbo trusted him to make him an arbitrator (supposedly, after he knew of Essjay lying about his identity, I don't know), and I don't think turning this into a lynch mob is helping the project, neither would depowering him. Will (Speak to Me/Breathe)(Grab that cash with both hands and make a stash) 18:03, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
  6. Agreed. Plus, its not our decision to make. pschemp | talk 18:36, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
[edit] No
  1. Even with the reword, I cannot support this (and indeed, from a technical point of view, no formal action has been taken against Essjay). There are too many issues here where trust has been breached or misplaced, and the issue has the potential of causing so much damage to Wikipedia's reputation, that sitting back and doing nothing is a position I cannot support. Sjakkalle (Check!) 15:31, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
  2. At the moment the external view of this will be something along the lines of Wikipedia doesn't care if one of its most senior members lies about his qualifications to highly regarded newspapers and university professors. Action must be taken to demonstrate that out-and-out dishonesty of this sort will not be tolerated. MartinMcCann 16:07, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
[edit] This question is pointless
  1. Wikipedia does not deal with punishment, all sanctions we impose are supposed to be preventative. Trying to suggest that calls for resignation from various duties is a call for "punishment" is a derailment. Sjakkalle (Check!) 15:22, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
    • Agreed. - Skysmith 15:26, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
    • Ok I will reword the title, subtle distinction. HighInBC (Need help? Ask me) 15:28, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
  2. Even with the reword, I doubt the community has the power to act formally. I don't think anyone anticipated such an egregious violation of trust from someone who had been entrusted with so much. DurovaCharge! 15:41, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
    • FCYTravis is calling for "punishment". Corvus cornix 20:04, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
  3. The community can bring an Arbcom case, which will have the power to act formally. (Can an arbcom decision remove someone from arbcom? On a little thinking about it, surely yes.) All these questions are is a gauge of the community's opinion, and therefore possibly preliminary steps, and possibly evidence for any Arbcom case or Jimbo action. --AnonEMouse (squeak) 15:57, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
  4. A Train take the 16:07, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
    Obviously, anyone agreeing with a question above that calls for further action is disagreeing with this question. That makes this question pretty pointless. GRBerry 16:42, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
    Those are all very specific, without this question there are only specific actions as options, or accepting that he did nothing wrong. This is a valid position to hold. HighInBC (Need help? Ask me) 17:32, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
    I was interpreting the question differently. The interpretation as "nothing beyond the above" is a question with a point. Removing myself from the numbered list. GRBerry 19:49, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
  5. Yeah, I don't much see the point of this question. --Cyde Weys 17:18, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
  6. Yes, agree with Sjakkalle. ElinorD (talk) 19:18, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Voting Is Evil
  1. It's far, far to early to be yes/noing this discussion. This is not a poll about what the community things about things in principal, where getting it out on the table helps, but what the community thinks about facts on the ground, where discussion, not lining up, is a good thing. It's obvious there's no strong consensus one way or another, so all we do now is form into camps.